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      "body": ">\"How could it not be?\"\n\nIt is preposterous to suppose a sole individual constructing such a facility alone, on their own dime.  This is a straw man argument.\n\nCorporations do this kind of construction, and they demonstrably and unfairly gain such resources despite other's use of them routinely, and characteristically.\n\n>\"If he digs a well and draws water from it, who else is owner of that water?\"\n\nThat water is part of a water table, which isn't separate from the water in the surrounding area.  Various communities try to regulate this commons, and are routinely and characteristically corrupted by corporations to favor them.\n\n>\"... if people rely on the water from his well as there is no other source of water there, then they still do not have the right to steal from him this water if they otherwise die. It is his water by right of appropriation...\"\n\nThis is preposterous as well.  What prevents me from appropriating the air you need to breathe, then?  If I build a box around you, and prevent air from being exchanged within it, according to you I have done nothing wrong.\n\nThat is exactly the same argument as someone digging a well that then deprives others' use of water in other parts of the water table - and this is the extant state of government.",
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      "body": "If the resources were not in use by anyone, then it is just for him to appropriate it. For example, if there was a flowing river that people drank from, it would not be just for him to claim this resource. If the river was polluted and he built a plant that purified the water, it would definitely be just for him to be the sole owner of that purified water. How could it not be? If he digs a well and draws water from it, who else is owner of that water?\n\nNow if people rely on the water from his well as there is no other source of water there, then they still do not have the right to steal from him this water if they otherwise die. It is his water by right of appropriation and no one else's. He mixed his labor with nature and created value that he owns, and it is his to distribute.",
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      "author": "thegripp",
      "body": "<blockquote>This system allows the ones with most Power define what is Just and what is not.</blockquote>\n\nNo. Our current system allows this. In an anarcho-capitalist society justice dealing is decentralized.\n\n<blockquote>Then the right to property is above the right to live?</blockquote>\n\nNo. Your right to live does not include the right to be kept alive. You have the right to live, you do not have the right to force other to support your life.\n\nWe are going in circles now. Your idea of justice includes stealing from haves and giving to have nots. My idea of justice includes respecting everyone's rights. This includes the right to property AND the right to life. Your idea of justice does not include the right to property and this is where we disagree.",
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      "author": "phgnomo",
      "body": "> Please note that \"just\" and \"fair\" are not synonyms\n\nThey aren't, but they are related. This system allows the ones with most Power define what is Just and what is not.\n\n> If you violate someone's property rights to safe a life, this is not justice but injustice\n\nThen the right to property is above the right to live? That seems pretty imoral (and evil)\n\n> but also the situation is highly unrealistic\n\nNot that unrealistic. Real world have a lot of historical exemplas of Monopoly  of natural resources. Here in Brazil there was a period where small communities were 'ruled' by big land owners \"coronéis\". They had the true Power over the community, not the government. There were no competition since they held all natural resources on the area, and other area owners wouldnt act on each other delimited areas.\n\n> Similarly a right to healthcare entitles you to a docto's labour which violates his rights\n\nDont know How It is on other places, but here a doctor have the right to not accept an specific healthcare. It is still his choice. There is still a public health system that provides health services to those that cant afford.\n\nBut under medic oath (and law) It is still not allowed to a medic to not provide emergency procedures.\n\n> It is much more profitable for the monopolist to leave the area alive. In that way he does not need to move.\n\nMaybe not. Maybe he is stablished in another area, and Go to this one only to exploit It for a Quick big profit and then go back to the área he lives is and dont exploit. Also, real life examples are there.\n\n> The demand for water is still not satisfied and more capitalists can come in and do the same\n\nOr maybe they reach an agreement to forma a cartel and have an even bigger influence.",
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      "author": "phgnomo",
      "body": "> To me the idea that one very big criminal organization is gonna prevent the formation of many small ones and that this is something to be happy about is absurd\n\nIs not about be happy about It. Is to allow It, and what i have seen about libertarianism It allowes that.\n\nSmall people Very rarely have enough Power fight the powerful, and when that happen, a lot of damage has already been done.",
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      "body": "<blockquote>to me this is evil</blockquote>\nI agree. Still, libertarian theory does not promise utopia. It simply promises a society that is more just than today's. Surely it would be better to take the risk of some maniac getting away with exploiting his local community than <i>having the guarantee</i> that everyone on the world is exploited by his local violent state.\n\nTo me the idea that one very big criminal organization is gonna prevent the formation of many small ones and that this is something to be happy about is absurd. Let's aim for no criminal organizations instead.",
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      "body": "Please note that \"just\" and \"fair\" are not synonyms. What's fair to you may not be fair to me. In the words of Bastiat: justice is the lack og injustice. Some action or inaction is just if no one's rights were violated. If you violate someone's property rights to safe a life, this is not justice but injustice. Undertake this action at your own peril.\n\nTo be clear, a right to water can certainly not exist, as it would be in conflict with another's right to property. It is important that a system of rights contain no contradictions, and therefore a law can only rise to the status of right if it is universal. Similarly a right to healthcare entitles you to a docto's labour which violates his rights.\n\nLet it be clear that I find your sketched situation a very bad one and I pity the people, but also the situation is highly unrealistic\n\nIt is much more profitable for the monopolist to leave the area alive. In that way he does not need to move.\n\nIf the monopolist buys all this water his profits dwindle, and the market mechanism does its job. The demand for water is still not satisfied and more capitalists can come in and do the same.",
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      "body": "Why should people tolerate the seizure of their water by the water magnate?\n\nWhy should they leave, just because he seizes the water?\n\nBy what mechanism is it just he does so?\n\nSeizure of natural resources, such as water, or by logging, has either to be modulated to make it just, and not monopolizable, or recognized as criminal corruption.",
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      "body": "How can it be just if if the market can be put in a state of unfairness?\n\nHow can people \"vote with their feet\" when they have no resources and are dying?\n\nHow can you be sure that the monopolist wouldn't only exploit the resources, leave the land dry and dead, then leave to another place to do the same thing, without leaving anything just and fair behind?\n\nSo, someone finds a way to provide water lower costs at the region, why wouldnt the monopolist just buy all this new water supply than what people could afford on the market for a higher price only to avoid other product than his to reach the market?\n\nHow is letting someone die more just than creating a mechanism that allow people to survive?\n\nAll the arguments i hear so far about libertarianism seems that creating unjust and unfair situations doesnt matter as long as everyone can do whatever the hell they want.",
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      "author": "thegripp",
      "body": "Let's abandon this strain as clearly you misunderstand me and I you.",
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      "body": "The socially necessary labor argument is circular. You determine the value of a product by the value of the labour involved, and you value the labour involved by the value of the product, which depends on the value of the labour.\n\nPlease tell me where I am wrong or revise your argument.",
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      "author": "thegripp",
      "body": "What keeps the people from voting with their feet and leaving? Assuming the monopolist is profit oriented, he leaves the people with enough money to survive after water costs.\n\nWhat keeps these people from collecting rainwater? What keeps other businesses on the periphery of the region to bring in water cheaply. In your example I assume this would not be possible, maybe the people live on an island or on a different planet? \n\nIt seems to me that fixing the price at 199,99 creates incredible incentive for competing businesses to find efficient ways of transporting water to that region.\n\nLastly, Libertarian theory does not claim that an anarcho-capitalist society would be a utopia where terrible situations do not exist. It merely claims that society would be more just. Is it morally okay to let someone die if you could save their life by giving them half your money? Is it morally okay to force someone to give up half their money in order to save someone's life? Definitely both situations are morally questionable, but the former is perfectly just while the latter is not.",
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      "author": "thegripp",
      "body": "I readily accept that the odds of me swaying the author in his beliefs are negligible. However, any online argument has the benefit that it has not two but many judges, and I hope to provide some insight for those critical thinkers who happen on this post.\n\nThe author is clearly an intelligent person, which is why it is dissapointing to see the economic calculation problem (ECP) misrepresented by him. Wether this is done purposely or not I do not know.  The ECP is not that there can be no unit of measurement, but that a value cannot be logically given to this unit. This is a very different argument that requires a different refutation.\n\nNext the author uses the labour theory of value to support his argument. He states the theory as follows\n<blockquote> Under the labor theory of value the value of objects are the amount of human labor it takes to produce them. </blockquote>\nA theory of value as such cannot hold as can be readily observed by opening a window and looking outside. Surely labour is a variable in the equation that determines value, but not the only variable. This theory could only work if we had constant returns to scale, that is, if every unit produced would be worth as much as the last.  Clearly we cannot produce chairs indefinitely as at some point everyone will be seated. Moreover, not only quantity of labor but quality of labor is important. If I make a chair in 8 hours but my brother makes one in 1 hour, his chair is not worth less. Lastly, direction of labour is important. If I spend 8 hours building a chair or 8 hours grinding planks into dust I did not create the same amount of value. Clearly usefulness of a product comes into the equation, but under the labour theory of value we then arrive at a circular argument! Namely, the value of a product is determined by the value of the labour, but also the value of labour is determined by the value of the product, which is determined by the value of the labour. Clearly the labour theory of value does not provide us with the full picture, and should be abandoned.\n\nIn conclusion the ECP was not disproven in this post. Better attempts than this have been made and have failed. the ECP remains and is real and any attempt to trivialize such a problem should be approached with scepticism.",
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      "body": "\"If this were to hold you would have no objection to me grinding planks into dust as opposed to turning them into chairs as long as it too the same amount of effort. \"\n\n\n\n>\"In conclusion you misrepresent the problem then use faulty theory to disprove it.\"\n\nand that kids, is called irony \n\n\n\"The labor theory of value (LTV) is a theory of value that argues that the economic value of a good or service is determined by the total amount of socially necessary labor required to produce it,\"\n\n\n\"socially necessary labor\"\n\n\n\nfuck off with that retarded shit",
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      "author": "anarchyhasnogods",
      "body": "government = free market",
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      "author": "thegripp",
      "body": "point being?",
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      "body": "The arguments mentioned here go something as follows. \"Businesses (in the free market) centralize resource control, therefore centralized control of resources works\".\n\nI hope you realise that using the fact that a business survives in the free market by using strategy A as an argument to prove that strategy A works implicitly supports the free market as a tool for selecting efficient strategies.\n\nMoreover, libertarian free marketeers readily admit that on a small scale centralized resource allocation cannot be avoided and is likely very efficient. For example in the family unit no one would dream of applying free market principles to a great extent.\n\nI have also read your own article trying to disprove the economic calculation problem. You seem like an intelligent person, which is why i was sad to see that you misrepresent the problem and accordingly disprove a misrepresented statement of the problem. The problem is not that a unit for calculation cannot exist. The problem is that a value can not be attributed in any useful way to such a unit. This is a very different problem.\n\nThen you use the labor theory of value to try and disprove this statement, which does not work as the labor theory of value is easily disproven by an example. The labor theory of value roughly asserts that :\n<blockquote>\"The real price of every thing, what every thing really costs to the man who wants to acquire it, is the toil and trouble of acquiring it.\"</blockquote>\nIf this were to hold you would have no objection to me grinding planks into dust as opposed to turning them into chairs as long as it too the same amount of effort. Clearly nonsensical.\nLess simply put, the labour theory of value asserts that we will always have constant returns to scale, which is clearly not true. If I flood the market with chairs the value of the chair decreases, but it still takes the same effort to produce.\n\nThe remark that labour is a determinant of price is definitely correct. To conclude that it is the only determinant is observably false. The easiest way to deal with this is to abandon the labour theory of value and accept that the equation that determines value is multivariate and labour is just one of the variables.\n\nIn conclusion you misrepresent the problem then use faulty theory to disprove it.",
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      "body": "Let's try this again. Your argument is that the free market does not work to provide the best outcome because one person tried to apply his interpretation of the free market in his business and the free market eliminated his business.\n\nIf you are of the belief that this person's management skills were suboptimal, then you admit that the free market solved this problem by eliminating his business and allocating his capital to more competent business owners. \n\nTo admit that you do not agree with this person's management skills is to admit that the free market works to move capital from inefficient to efficient actors.\n\nMoreover, to admit that this person's management skills <i>does not</i> lead to a contradiction in terms. Just because I believe I have found the perfect way to apply free market principles to my business does not mean that is the only way, or even if that is a truly free market way.",
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      "author": "anarchyhasnogods",
      "body": "\" Don't worry if you can't. No one can, as it is not possible, as has already been proved many times.\"\n\n\nalso wrong. \n\n\nhttps://www.reddit.com/r/communism/wiki/debunk\n\n\n\nhttps://www.reddit.com/r/socialism/comments/3fjh8g/how_could_you_refute_the_economic_calculation/",
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      "body": "\"This is not an argument against the free market, it's an argument for it. He decided to manage his business in this fashion while his competition had a different strategy.\"\n\n\n\nhis strategy was to use the free market within his company. The argument to be made here is that even in the free market, the free market is not the best answer and that management is better",
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      "author": "anarchyhasnogods",
      "body": "\"I see where you're confused. I mean one single director directing all capital from above. In the free market we have many free actors directing their own capital.\"\n\n\n\n\"We have multiple countries directing their own capital from above\"",
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      "author": "thegripp",
      "body": "I see where you're confused. I mean one single director directing all capital from above. In the free market we have many free actors directing their own capital.\n\nNot sure what that Salon article has to do with anything. \n<blockquote>Lampert took the myth that humans perform best when acting selfishly as gospel, pitting Sears company managers against each other in a kind of Lord of the Flies death match. This, he believed, would cause them to act rationally and boost performance.</blockquote>\nThis is not an argument against the free market, it's an argument for it. He decided to manage his business in this fashion while his competition had a different strategy. He lost and the competition won. Capital was moved from inefficient to efficient actors.\n\nLastly, you dismissing the economic calculation problem with a lmao really does not look good on you. Please explain how economic calculation is possible in a society without market prices. Don't worry if you can't. No one can, as it is not possible, as has already been proved many times.",
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      "body": "\"Capitalists perform a very valuable function in society, and one that lacks in any kind of socialist society and which ultimately always leads to its demise. \"\n\n\nare you talking about the economic calculation \"problem\" or something lmao\n\n\n\n\n>\"It is also worth noting that monopolies occur because of, not despite, regulation. Regulation allows big money corporations to put their fingers where they don't belong: politics. Name me a monopoly or market failure and I'll name you a case of state intervention.\"\n\n\nactually, I have the opposite \n\nhttps://www.salon.com/2013/12/10/ayn_rand_loving_ceo_destroys_his_empire_partner/\n\n\nwhy do free market principles destroy businesses lmao",
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      "body": "@@ -108,8 +108,80 @@\n roperty?\n+%0A%0A%0A%0Abecause the only system like that I can think of is market socialism\n",
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      "body": "\"In capitalist society there is no director directing capital from above. \"\ncan you please define private property?",
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      "body": "Capitalists perform a very valuable function in society, and one that lacks in any kind of socialist society and which ultimately always leads to its demise. This has been described in many works, but foremost in Ludwig von Mises' works. \n\nIn capitalist society there is no director directing capital from above. Instead the free market functions as a mechanism that naturally brings resources there where they are most useful. For example, suppose we have a large country, and harvest in the east fails and there is a scarcity of food. People in a capitalist society will want to pay much to stay alive, and producers of food will want to get food there as quickly as possible in order to capitalize on this increased market price. A potato may be 10 cents in the west, but 50 cents in the east. \n\nIn contrast, if there is scarcity in an organized society it is up to the organizer to detect this. This usually works fine. It is not very hard to detect where there should be more food and where there should be less. It is in the subtleties where this goes wrong. Definitely you can ask people how much food they need and calculate when to get it there. The problem occurs in many layered industries. How is a director supposed to decide how much steel to allocate to the tractor factory, to the constructors, to the railway builders, to the automotive industry, to the small tools manufacturers, to the nail and screw factories, etc etc. In the free market society there is no need to think about these problems, they fix themselves. Market prices are determined for steel and producers outbid eachother to get the resources they need. There is no way to do market calculations in the socialist society, as has been proven many times, and therefore such market mechanisms are not possible, neither in theory nor in practice.\n\nThis is also why socialist societies are breeding grounds for black-markets (free markets). Volumes have been written about the underground economy in the soviet union. In the DPRK there is a thriving black market for sweets, which are underproduced and in great demand.\n\nIt is also worth noting that monopolies occur <i>because of</i>, not despite, regulation. Regulation allows big money corporations to put their fingers where they don't belong: politics. Name me a monopoly or market failure and I'll name you a case of state intervention.",
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