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      "body": "Stef made the argument before that if you are in a concentration camp and your captor gives you a plate of food you are not \"accepting\" your imprisonment by eating the food, you are merely trying not to die and wait for better circumstances. We are that prisoner bro. And Trump is the guard that doesn't agree with what is happening and manages to get extra food for the prisoners and gives info to the prisoners that the war is about to end and to keep holding a bit longer. \n\nThe thing is we have to be pragmatic here. Are we going to see a libertarian society in our life time? No. People are still way too dumb for that. So change must come a little at a time. If we get to vote on whether taxes are 50% or 25%, I say vote for 25%. Is that legitimizing theft? No, that is choosing the best of 2 evils. It's just that there isn't an option for \"No taxes\". And I think the option isn't going from \"choose your next master\" to \"should there be taxes\". It'll be more gradual than that.",
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      "body": "replying to telos\n1) people have their judgement clouded when using alcohol. They confuse distances, their reaction time is impaired, they may have halluciations, etc. \n2) people are irrational to the point where they may not be conscious of their own impairment\n3) If people are unconscious of the wrongs they may cause by driving, you have the right to stop the imminent disaster, because you will use violence to stop potential harm\n\nTake this analogy\nSomeone puts a mentally retarded person in a room with 100 switches and 1 of those switches sends a nuclear bomb to a random country. This mentally retarded person doesn't know this and he doesn't know what the switches are for.\nDo you not use force to get the person away from the room, if you know indeed that one of those switches poses a threat?\n\nNew dilemma: there is a person guarding the room and that person has be instructed to stop any intruders. You have to use force upon that person if he does not move.  You have to use force if there are 2,3,4,5 security guys.\n\nOf course this is the trolley problem. You did not put the mentally retarded person in the room with the switches. But to be moral you have to act morally despite the circunstances. So if that means breaking the NAP to prevent violence then yes, you should. \n\nNow all this being said, you have to make the case that robbing everyone in the country to pay for the police when the police themselves do immoral actions without justification (like jailing people for non violent crimes) is itself moral. Which it isn't.\nSo if you are going to go through the consequentialism route instead of the moral objetivity route then be prepared to justify every possible consequence of an action, not just 5 lives are better than 1 (even this can be discussed as you could be killing Einstein instead of Hitler, Mussolini, etc).\n\nSo what is justified self defence? Like you said, you really don't need the bullet to be  lodged in your brain for you to be able to act with violence in self defence. I guess fines are a good way to keep people from driving drunk, but otherwise I'm stumped.",
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      "body": "answering telos\nThe morals are decided by what is logically consistent. If you decide murder is moral then you are saying that another person can exert his will upon (kill you) you but you can't exert your will upon him (not be killed) (assuming you want to live, if you don't, then it isn't murder, it's assisted suicide). So it's logically inconsistent, like saying 2=3, which we all know to be false simply my empirical facts. \nThe case for property rights is this: you own yourself (if you need logical proof on this go search it, I just assumed it as true). When you are born you aren't born into slavery. No one can take your arm, eat it, and you'll be ok with it. So by owning yourself you can do whatever you want to do with your time, as long as it isn't causing harm to anyone (you aren't murdering anyone, raping anyone, etc). So if you decide to spend 8 hours to get money and then you buy property with that money, no one should be able to steal any part of that property or the money you worked for, unless you consent to that (social contract doesn't involve consent).\nA culture without personal property would be sustainable only insofar as it would be moral, ie the people would have to CONSENT to give their property away. So if I work for 8h and you work for 4h I would have to freely give my 2h of work to you (in the form of currency or food or whatever). But this, as you know, has too many ways to go wrong... that's why communism doesn't work. \n\nSo there, I just proved morality is objective despite cultural beliefs (which aren't logical - if you are going to use tribes to base your arguments remember that we used to burn witches, commit infanticide, etc. the only logical argument that can be sustained is that an immoral action (murder) can become moral once you have consent (murder -> euthanasia, rape -> sex, theft -> giving stuff, violence -> martial arts, etc...)",
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