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      "author": "jameselton",
      "body": "You can't understand because it's absurd. The question is: why don't you think it's similarly absurd to oppose taxation on the grounds that it makes amassing wealth difficult?\n\nThe \"punitive\" thread is a red herring.  The wealthy are not taxed more aggressively MERELY as punishment,  anymore so that theft is prohibited MERELY to be punitive.  The punitive impulse is in response to an already established prohibition. In the case of theft, it's a prohibition against taking what isn't yours, and in the case of taxation, it's a prohibition on hording resources to the harm of others.",
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      "author": "dragosroua",
      "body": "Still don't understand how theft could NOT be considered wrong, but maybe I miss something. I will just copy paste my answer to another comment below, maybe that will clarify my position:\n\n\"The taxation was perceived as \"punitive\": _because they have so much, they should intrinsically and unquestionably suport a different level of taxation_. The focus of the questions is on the cognitive bias which creates a conflict between wanting to have a money but stopping any action towards this goal because you hold this belief that having too much money should be taxable punitively. That sends the message that too much money is bad, somehow.\n\nAt least that's my understanding of it.\"",
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      "author": "jameselton",
      "body": "Would you not argue that it is self defeating to want stuff (things, possessions, and so on) but to simultaneously believe that it is wrong to steal? After all, a prohibition on theft makes it harder to amass things.\n\nIf you do believe these are contradictory, then I would say that it does not follow from the fact that these two forces act against each other, that they are morally incomparable. Sure, one makes the other harder, but that obstacle is justified by the moral stakes (namely that taking things that could have reasonably been acquired otherwise is harmful).  And as a consequence, your argument is invalid.\n\nIf you believe that a prohibition on theft and amassing wealth are morally compatible, I would ask why you think these two opposite forces are compatible, but taxation and amassing wealth are not.",
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      "author": "dragosroua",
      "body": ">  it's contradictory to want a lot of stuff but to simultaneously believe that stealing is wrong.\n\nYou lost me here, a bit.",
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      "body": "The central argument here is invalid. Wanting to be a billionaire and supporting 52% taxation are not conflicting goals. It would be like saying it's contradictory to want a lot of stuff but to simultaneously believe that stealing is wrong. It's absurd.",
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      "author": "churdtzu",
      "body": ">We implicitly agree to abide by laws.\n\nI don't. In fact, I explicitly declare that I do my best to ignore laws. Morals and ethics are more important than laws. You can agree to abide by laws if you like, but that has nothing to do with me.\n\n> That matters to me, to the judiciary, and to every nation and people on earth. It is a harm in itself. Granted, sometimes a justifiable harm, but a harm nonetheless.\n\nI think you're assuming a lot about what every people on Earth care about.\n\nHow is it a harm? Who is the victim?\n\n>As to the harm caused by not respecting the territorial boundaries of neighbours, there is a large body of philosophical work on the subject. I invite you to read it. Key words include: property, privacy, security, and contract.\n\nOkay, show me.\n\n>This isn't a binary where we either know precisely how effective it will be or we don't know whether it will be effective at all.\n\nI agree, it's not a binary. However, whether it will be cost effective is a binary. If it costs more money than it saves, it is ineffective. If we don't know that it will reach that point of efficacy, we have to assume that it won't.\n\n>My anecdotal evidence \\suggests precisely the opposite. The difference between me and you is that I know my anecdotes are just that.\n\nGreat, but I'm not just talking about anecdotal evidence. [More than a million US citizens live in Mexico](https://www.state.gov/r/pa/ei/bgn/35749.htm), and I'm sure many more have left for other countries. There are real risks in being in the United States, such as civil forfeiture, police brutality, an ever-expanding state with countless laws - literally nobody knows how many laws there are in the US. Do you agree to abide by all of them?\n\nEven if I were talking about my own experience, that would be pretty silly for me to dismiss it as just being anecdotes. Am I supposed to ignore my own experience and assume that none of it is valuable? I can understand if it doesn't convince you, and that's fine, but a lot of people are aware of these risks and are taking action.\n\n>Given our interactions so far, I don't trust your ability to judge those interactions, but more importantly, it's more anecdote anyway.\n\nThat's fine. If you want to present evidence that the wall is a good idea, go ahead. So far, all you've done is tell me that the immigration is illegal, and that causes harm, without stating how.",
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      "body": "This story is hollow from beginning to end.  Temple-Wood receives negative attention--not because she's female--but because she is driven by ideological martyr fantasies rather than by truth, and her sub-par work reflects that. For real Wikipedia editors, the task is undoing the damage she does and the damage she organises other zealots to do.\n\n\"She’d been receiving vicious emails for a decade.\"\n\nAccording to her, she's only been active on Wikipedia for five years. I guess she must have been getting \"viscous\" emails for some other nutty feminist activity.\n\n\"Temple-Wood became a frequent target of abuse merely because she is the rare female Wikipedia editor who has been active on the site for years\"\n\nErrant and amazingly unlikely.  Isn't it strange that only the feminist editors get serial-harassed \"because\" they are female?  It couldn't possibly have to do with their warped view of the world.\n\n\"Across the internet, trolls disproportionately target women and members of other underrepresented groups.\"\n\nErrant. You are simply defining as trolls people who target \"underepresented groups,\" and defining as heroes people who target \"over-represented groups.\" I know it; you know it; we all know it. And overlooking--embarrassingly so--the all too common reality of false flags and attackers not motivated by any hated at all, but the simple desire to trigger someone who's predisposed to being triggered (enter every feminist ever). \n\n\"For every harassing email, death threat, or request for nude photos that she received...\"\n\nIn feminist-land, these three activities are equivalent.  Come on. Just snap out of it.",
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      "author": "stevescoins",
      "body": "> think what leads us easily astray is that the man who touches the elephant is dealing with an objective world when he debates whether it's an elephant or a sofa that he's touching, but the stimulus that mediates his interaction with that object is subjectively true.\n\nI'm glad you ended with that.  it's a good summary.\n\nwe have:\nobjective truth -> all intermediating factors (senses, biases, previous experiences, etc) -> subjective truth.\n\nSince I don't think that we can \"see\" the complete Objective Truth, I claim that we really only need to see enough of it to make rational decisions about what I called the Common Truth, and only then when those decisions involve real repercussions.\n\nI'd say \"our\" task  is to teach enough critical thinking skills to remove as much as the intermediating filters as possible to make the best decisions possible in that framework, while realizing that missing data can still have an effect on those decisions.\n\nGood comment, when I revisit this blog, it will aid me in making my point cleaner",
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      "body": "Part of the difficulty working with objectivity and subjectivity is that they are overloaded philosophical terms. The Internet Encyclopedia does a pretty good job of introducing the main usages. http://www.iep.utm.edu/objectiv/\n\nPart of the problem with your analysis above is that you seem to be sliding back and forth between objectivity/subjectivity with regard to knowledge and objectivity/subjectivity with regard to judgement. For example, when a blind man describes an Elephant as a sofa because he deduces from his experience that it is a sofa, he has not stated a subjective truth in terms of knowledge. Epistemologically speaking, it is an objective falsehood.\n\nNow contrast that with, say, the blind man's determination that the sofa he's feeling feels pleasant. This feeling he has is epistemologically subjective. So what's the difference between mistaking an elephant for a sofa and thinking the sofa/elephant feels nice to touch? \n\nIn principal, the elephant/sofa is actually one of the two because it actually is one of the two out there in reality. In other words, it's the way that it is grounded that makes it epistemelogically objective. Conversely, the feeling that it's pleasant to touch the sofa/elephant is true BECAUSE the blind man is experiencing it. The fact that he is experiencing it makes it is necessarily true.  In fact, the only way it could be false if the the blind man wasn't actually feeling it.\n\n\"Dude. I said it felt nice, but it really just creeped me out.\"\n\nA nice shortcut for this: things that are mediated are objective and things that are not mediated are subjective.\n\nI think what leads us easily astray is that the man who touches the elephant is dealing with an objective world when he debates whether it's an elephant or a sofa that he's touching, but the stimulus that mediates his interaction with that object is subjectively true.",
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      "author": "dwinblood",
      "body": "Hard to say.   I hope that is not what it takes, but it does feel like that could happen.",
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      "author": "jameselton",
      "body": "Journalism today reminds me a lot of pre-20th century journalism.  It makes me sad to say it, but I suspect the 20th century has been a high mark in objective journalism that we may not see again.  Maybe we needed a couple world wars to scare us into it?",
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      "body": "This has happened to me as well. Sadly there is always *some* risk. The only house in my neighbourhood that is 100% safe from thieves is a biker clubhouse, but even they have to worry about police and rival gangs.  (I suspect they're more worried than I am).\n\nMinimise your exposure as much as possible, repair the breech in your security (they are going to come back), and try to find a way to come to terms with the fact that living in the world just entails some risk.\n\nGood luck!",
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      "body": "\"It doesn't bother me at all if someone wants to do something illegally. The legality of an action is almost entirely distinct from its morality. Can you tell me why you think legality is so important?\"\n\nWe implicitly agree to abide by laws.  Those who do not are betraying the trust of those who do. That matters to me, to the judiciary, and to every nation and people on earth.  It is a harm in itself. Granted, sometimes a justifiable harm, but a harm nonetheless.\n\nAs to the harm caused by not respecting the territorial boundaries of neighbours, there is a large body of philosophical work on the subject.  I invite you to read it. Key words include: property, privacy, security, and contract.\n\n\"Yes it is, because if we don't know what good it will do, then our null hypothesis should be that it won't do any good\"\n\nThere's a good reason to believe it will do some good. Walls work. Look at the wall between Gaza and Egypt. It's very effective. Again, you're in this habit of wishfully shifting the argument in your favour by misrepresenting the situation. Walls have been hindering the movement of people for thousands of years. This isn't a binary where we either know precisely how effective it will be or we don't know whether it will be effective at all. \n\n\"You don't have a sense of it. I do. I've already seen many of my US friends decide to expatriate to Mexico, or other countries, because they see the growing problems of a huge, overbearing, violent government.\"\n\nMy anecdotal evidence \\suggests precisely the opposite. The difference between me and you is that I *know* my anecdotes are just that.\n\n\"It seems that way because almost every time I ask these questions of people who support the wall, I get the response that people don't even know if it will work, and can't quantify why they think it's a good idea, and they can barely supply any evidence indicating why it would be a good idea.\"\n\nGiven our interactions so far, I don't trust your ability to judge those interactions, but more importantly, it's more anecdote anyway.",
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      "body": ">they--at least--also want to enter a country illegally.\n\nIt doesn't bother me at all if someone wants to do something illegally. The legality of an action is almost entirely distinct from its morality. Can you tell me why you think legality is so important?\n\n>It's also an error to say that undermining a people's sovereignty over their land is not a \"harm.\" It most certainly is. Just as much as theft or fraud.\n\nYes, how so? Who is the victim? How have they been harmed? What is the nature of the harm - physical, emotional, spiritual, mental? At which moment was it caused? Approximately how much would it cost to compensate for the harm, and what would you base that number on?\n\n>This is a perfectly reasonable question to ask, but it's not a point one way or the other.\n\nYes it is, because if we don't know what good it will do, then our null hypothesis should be that it won't do any good. It's like if I say \"I'm going to jump on the spot 10 times every morning to prevent global warming.\" You ask \"Will that actually help?\" and I say \"I don't know.\" Is that a point one way or another?\n\n>I don't have a sense that a significant number of Americans are dying to go to Mexico or that there's any attempt to prevent them.\n\nYou don't have a sense of it. I do. I've already seen many of my US friends decide to expatriate to Mexico, or other countries, because they see the growing problems of a huge, overbearing, violent government. I'm assuming from the way you're talking, you live within the borders of the empire, and you grew up there. Do you think that your opinion, based on the education you were given, and the media you're subjected to, would be an informed, objective opinion on what people with good foresight and good information want? If there were scores, hundreds or thousands or even millions of people who wanted to escape the US, how would you know? And how many people from the US do you think live in Mexico? I'll give you a hint: it's more than 2.\n\n>I don't know why it seems that way to you. Nothing in your post supports this assessment.\n\nIt seems that way because almost every time I ask these questions of people who support the wall, I get the response that people don't even know if it will work, and can't quantify why they think it's a good idea, and they can barely supply any evidence indicating why it would be a good idea.",
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      "body": "1) \"when all they wanted to do was find a job\"\n\nThis is a mischaracterization of the situation. People who are entering the country illegally are not merely looking for a job (if they're even doing that), they--at least--also want to enter a country illegally. Considering that illegal entry is the central motivation for the wall, it's a big thing to overlook.\n\n2) \"Therefore, they shouldn't be punished.\"\n\nA wall only punishes people who have commited the crime of trying to cross it. It's also an error to say that undermining a people's sovereignty over their land is not a \"harm.\" It most certainly is. Just as much as theft or fraud.\n\n3) \"Will the wall even stop a significant number of people?\"\n\nThis is a perfectly reasonable question to ask, but it's not a point one way or the other.\n\n4) \"those fences may be used against us, keeping us in\"\n\nThis is a reasonable concern, but a little far-fetched on its face. I don't have a sense that a significant number of Americans are dying to go to Mexico or that there's any attempt to prevent them.\n\n\"The wall seems to be a token, populist effort unrelated to anything except an appeal to intensely emotional xenophobia.\"\n\nI don't know why it seems that way to you. Nothing in your post supports this assessment.",
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